Agreed. Personally I’d like the curves to hit peak luminance at ACEScct 1.0 (or around 10 stops above mid grey) but this isn’t doing exactly that but that’s what I tried to hit with those numbers. I’m equally unsure how Jed derived his numbers.

Looking back at my tonescale models colab, I realize I did not describe well my thinking behind what scene-linear value we decide to map to peak display value. I’ve added a bit more description on this topic there, but in short:

For all 3 of the tonescale models I shared in that colab, the scene-linear value to peak display value mapping roughly follows the following table:

L_p | value |
---|---|

100 | 35 |

600 | 65 |

1000 | 75 |

4000 | 100 |

The regression fits you see linked in the colab code are to find a function of L_p that roughly fits these values through the tonescale function, so that we can smoothly vary L_p and get an “interpolated” result that makes sense. FYI there are also a few variations of tonescale functions which allow you to explicitly specify this mapping (at the expense of mathematical complexity), in the tonescale functions colab I posted earlier.

I don’t believe this is the only valid approach though. I think @daniele suggested in one of the meetings last year to have a constant peak white mapping, perhaps based on the peak value of the log space used for grading (ACEScct in the ACES system, I guess). There are pros and cons to each approach that should probably be considered.

Edit: removing the term “luminance”, because this discussion really has no consideration of color information.

wait wait,

we have two scaler m and w,

- m is post tonemapping
- w is before

with w you move exposure in a scene-referred scene

with m you move so that the top end lands where it should be

so which scene-referred value should hit max on the output is not something w should do.

w is there to adapt exposure between SDR and HDR.

So if you can express how let’s say grey should move between SDR and HDR this should guide the calculations of w. Nothing else.

It’s not, it’s the w_1. It should be named m_1 perhaps. The w only changes exposure.

Yes, agreed on all points (sorry for the confusion). In my post above I’m only talking about m. I’m using different names for the variables, but the models I built are exactly as you describe:

- pre-tonemap multiply adjusts position of grey (overall image exposure)
- post-tonemap multiply adjusts position of peak / max value (HDR/SDR scaling and peak value position)

Additionally (in case it is not clear) all of the tonescale models that I built are driven with one user parameter (L_p), which in turn drives the variables of the tonescale function. The tonescale functions generally have the following variables:

- pre-tonemap multiply
- pre-tonemap power function (only in the “dual contrast” tonescale model)
- post-tonemap multiply
- post tonemap power function for “contrast” and flare compensation
- quadratic toe compress flare compensation

yes naming is important.

I still think that tone scale match between SDR and HDR should be driven by w and not m.

m shall be used to map any number (in my first suggestion it is inf+) onto the top end of the output scale. We can trivially change it to 1.0 in ACEScct or 128 or whatever… Not sure if this is an important factor now. It barely changes the appearance of the curve.

I think it should be possible to hit the display peak without having to create crazy scene values. I don’t know whether fixed limit or a variable range is better, but the limit(s) should be decided. It’s of course possible to match exactly what MM-SDC candidate uses right now and just go with that.

In yesterday’s meeting @nick said:

“Some broadcasters mandate graphic white at 100% SDR.”

In SDR, with mapping to infinity, ACEScct 1.0 comes out as 0.998. Jed’s limit of 35 for SDR comes out as 0.987. Do you think these would be close enough for SDR so that they would be acceptable? Going with the infinity mapping would be simplest.

another version where a finite number r is “hitting the roof”

Same Rendering Code

Did a quick check where other DRTs land peak white in Rec.709. These are very approximate, I just checked the values from the Nuke viewer.

DRT | scene value |
---|---|

ARRI REVEAL | 230 |

RED IPP2 | 190 |

ARRI ALF2 | 57 |

ARRI K1S1 | 41 |

TCAMv2 | 40 |

SONY S-Gamut3.Cine | 30 |

ACES 1.3 | 17 |